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Video Game» Forums » Video Game Related » General Video Gaming

Subject: Dark side of "Gamer entitlement" rss

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M@tthijs
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Cynical wrote:
[ -- a lot of stuff about how the game industry should adept to Cynical's wishes -- ]
Jennifer Hepler wrote:
I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either
One last delicious irony about this quote: [..]
To me the irony is how you turn around even this remark by Hepler into something about you, including your salary and your view of colleagues in your field of work.

This amazes me. Maybe it's a cultural thing. But I don't get it.
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The fact that she'd say that people who criticize her are all people who are just jealous that they can't get gaming jobs, when in fact they've been offered work by the company that she works for, is the irony.
 
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I doubt she's referring to the people who criticize her.
I expect she's referring to the people harassing and threatening her.

To quote from Pulp Fiction: "That ain't the same **** ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same **** sport."
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Have you read any of the linked threads?

Here's the timeline of what happened:
1. Someone makes a post on reddit, saying that people like Hepler are killing the game industry (a bit melodramatic, but whatever, you'd have to be pretty thin skinned to be offended by that). This is after months of people criticizing her writing in DA2, especially her writing for the character Anders.
2. Hepler responds with her now-infamous "lol, they're just jealous virgins" quip via twitter.
3. The floodgates of the internet open. But only after she made that comment.
 
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I guess she had it coming then.
/sarcasm off.

Cynical wrote:
The fact that she'd say that people who criticize her are all people who are just jealous that they can't get gaming jobs, when in fact they've been offered work by the company that she works for, is the irony.

And I didn't know most people who had criticized her were offered jobs by the company she works for.
/irony off too.

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Cynical wrote:
A mascot game and two mediocre indie games with production values on par with something you'd see on Kongregate? That's the best the genre can offer?


They did offer Rayman Origins, which is a quality game and didn't sell. Yes, production values are lower (tho probably higher than the golden age of 2D platformers with the SNES.) but the games are still quality and challenging, and not for casual gamers, which is your argument.

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Why move away from it? Because some asshole manager in a suit thinks you can make more money by dumbing it down and making the *game* part simpler in the name of accessibility, thus we get DA2 and can kiss the franchise goodbye.


Except the franchise is hardly dead, with them putting money into direct-to-video stories. DA2 might have gotten a mixed response, but I do know people who like it.

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Daggerfall came out in 1996, and it certainly didn't hold the "traditional" wRPGs back; in fact, it came out right before the golden age of Interplay and Troika! On the other hand, 2003 is the year that KotoR came out and the games got really simple, in an attempt to appeal to people who "aren't hardcore" or whatever.


There was a poll someplace asking what Elder Scrolls games they played. There was a huge spike starting with Morrowind on. Morrowind got greater penetration than Daggerfall, partially because it also got a console release and partially because the graphics were great for its time.

I also wouldn't call them "casual" games, since they require massive time commitments and are very unstructured.

Quote:
One last delicious irony about this quote: I was actually offered a programming job with Bioware about 5 years ago, when I was fresh out of college. I turned them down because they were only willing to offer $30,000/yr for a programming position, whereas every competing offer I got was over $55,000/yr. The people I know who actually took that job were the C and D students who didn't have anything else going for them. Implying that someone would be jealous of a games industry job, or can't get one is completely LOL; the games industry is generally the bottom-of-the-barrel in terms of the talent they hire.


I'll make sure to tell that to my friend, who works for Zenimax.

Do you make less initially in the game industry? Certainly. But, the people who do it are generally the people who want to be doing it.

BTW, I think you should be grateful that you could make $55k out of college, because that probably isn't most people. 20 years ago when I got out of college, I was making 20k a year doing tech support. My first software engineering job I was making 36K. I now make a lot more.
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TheLongshot wrote:
They did offer Rayman Origins, which is a quality game and didn't sell. Yes, production values are lower (tho probably higher than the golden age of 2D platformers with the SNES.) but the games are still quality and challenging, and not for casual gamers, which is your argument.

So, the genre is still alive because one game from an already popular series got released last year?

Here's a challenge: name one platformer with production values as good as Hard Corps: Uprising that isn't a sequel. Shouldn't be too hard if the genre isn't dead, right?

Quote:
Except the franchise is hardly dead, with them putting money into direct-to-video stories. DA2 might have gotten a mixed response, but I do know people who like it.

Yeah, nothing says success quite like direct-to-video movies do.

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I also wouldn't call them "casual" games, since they require massive time commitments and are very unstructured.

So, The Sims must be the most hardcore game ever?

Quote:
BTW, I think you should be grateful that you could make $55k out of college, because that probably isn't most people. 20 years ago when I got out of college, I was making 20k a year doing tech support. My first software engineering job I was making 36K. I now make a lot more.

What you made out of college is meaningless without knowing what year, so inflation can be factored in. $56K in 2007 isn't far off from $36K in 1990.
 
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[q="Cynical"]So, the genre is still alive because one game from an already popular series got released last year?

Here's a challenge: name one platformer with production values as good as Hard Corps: Uprising that isn't a sequel. Shouldn't be too hard if the genre isn't dead, right?[/quote]

Not hard at all. Shank.

Man, for a genre that's dead, I sure can name a lot of games. Course, you will dismiss them out of hand because they don't fit in with your argument.

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Yeah, nothing says success quite like direct-to-video movies do.


Video game movies in general don't spell success, but I'm just pointing out that EA wouldn't be putting out so much effort to keep it alive. BTW, Dragon Age III has been announced.

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What you made out of college is meaningless without knowing what year, so inflation can be factored in. $56K in 2007 isn't far off from $36K in 1990.


1997, actually. I was exaggerating slightly since I graduated college in 1995. Still, I don't see you arguing your point very well.
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Cynical wrote:
TheLongshot wrote:
I'll follow with a few more: Mega Man 10. Super Meat Boy. VVVVVV. All released the same year.

A mascot game and two mediocre indie games with production values on par with something you'd see on Kongregate? That's the best the genre can offer?


Face it Cynical, either at this point your are just trolling, or you are simply blind to reason on your crusade versus the "sissification" of game. Yes Mario and Megaman sale on the strength of their brand, so? Do you think that Dragon Age II is better than The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings? Because I can't think of any measurement that would make it. And yet DA2 sold much more than Witcher on the strength of the brand alone. And crap indie games? Yeah, looks more and more like you are part of the problem I was mentioning. The shiny game game crowd, more worried with the looks than gameplay. Face it mate, there won't be a non-Mario platformer with millions poured on it.

Quote:
On the other hand, 2003 is the year that KotoR came out and the games got really simple, in an attempt to appeal to people who "aren't hardcore" or whatever.


Are you saying that they are wrong in trying to sell more? Take Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 for example, a crappy game, much worst than Call of Duty, yet 6.5million copies sold on D1. Are you going to argue that they should make the game harder and risk that sales number? Specially when the game cost is up to $200 million (this is an article about MW2, so you can use as base for MW3), money that they need to expend specially on the shiny and marketing. If you want that, you need to get away from that and move into indie games, but after what you commented above, I doubt it you would like them.
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Cynical wrote:
The fact that she'd say that people who criticize her are all people who are just jealous that they can't get gaming jobs, when in fact they've been offered work by the company that she works for, is the irony.


Youa re saying that everyone on that forum has been offered a game job an Bioware?

EDIT: Or in fact that they are sockpuppets of you?
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TheLongshot wrote:
Cynical wrote:
So, the genre is still alive because one game from an already popular series got released last year?

Here's a challenge: name one platformer with production values as good as Hard Corps: Uprising that isn't a sequel. Shouldn't be too hard if the genre isn't dead, right?


Not hard at all. Shank.

Man, for a genre that's dead, I sure can name a lot of games. Course, you will dismiss them out of hand because they don't fit in with your argument.


I can offer another, Braid. Which although it is an hybrid 2d-platform\puzzle game, has an wonderful production cost, it is not dumb down, specially if you want to get it "full" and was quite a success.
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yohanleafheart wrote:
Cynical wrote:
TheLongshot wrote:
I'll follow with a few more: Mega Man 10. Super Meat Boy. VVVVVV. All released the same year.

A mascot game and two mediocre indie games with production values on par with something you'd see on Kongregate? That's the best the genre can offer?


Face it Cynical, either at this point your are just trolling, or you are simply blind to reason on your crusade versus the "sissification" of game. Yes Mario and Megaman sale on the strength of their brand, so? Do you think that Dragon Age II is better than The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings? Because I can't think of any measurement that would make it. And yet DA2 sold much more than Witcher on the strength of the brand alone. And crap indie games? Yeah, looks more and more like you are part of the problem I was mentioning. The shiny game game crowd, more worried with the looks than gameplay. Face it mate, there won't be a non-Mario platformer with millions poured on it.

Quote:
On the other hand, 2003 is the year that KotoR came out and the games got really simple, in an attempt to appeal to people who "aren't hardcore" or whatever.


Are you saying that they are wrong in trying to sell more? Take Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 for example, a crappy game, much worst than Call of Duty, yet 6.5million copies sold on D1. Are you going to argue that they should make the game harder and risk that sales number? Specially when the game cost is up to $200 million (this is an article about MW2, so you can use as base for MW3), money that they need to expend specially on the shiny and marketing. If you want that, you need to get away from that and move into indie games, but after what you commented above, I doubt it you would like them.

Yes, I'm only after shinies, which is why the last few games I've played have been Touhou, arcade games from over 10 years ago emulated via MAME, and Crimzon Clover. And it's not like a quick glance over at my 10s on my profile would tell you that the only games there from the last 5 years are Crimzon Clover, GalCiv 2 and Supreme Commander (the info on Mushihimesama Futari is wrong, that game was actually released in 2006 not 2009).

No, the reason I don't play indie games is because, with few exceptions, they're total crap made by talentless hacks using terms like "retro", "experimental", and "art" to hide the fact that they fail to understand the genres they are trying to ape.

I would recommend reading every article linked on this page: http://insomnia.ac/reviews/introducing_the_indie_scene/

also:
http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_the_genealogy_of_art_games/

Quote:
Youa re saying that everyone on that forum has been offered a game job an Bioware?

EDIT: Or in fact that they are sockpuppets of you?

I'm saying that almost no one could ever be "jealous" of someone for having a game industry job, given how easy it is to get one, and how little compensation you receive for it, and how crappy the conditions are, and how crappy the hours are. Thinking otherwise is just a delusion of grandeur for Heppler.

Quote:
I can offer another, Braid. Which although it is an hybrid 2d-platform\puzzle game, has an wonderful production cost, it is not dumb down, specially if you want to get it "full" and was quite a success.

Too bad it's a failure both as a platformer and as a puzzle game. Its controls are horrible, its got a PoP:SoT-style rewind mechanic so the platforming aspects hold no challenge, and the puzzles are completely braindead. Good review of it: http://insomnia.ac/reviews/xbox360/braid/page_01.php

Quote:
Limbo

Does Limbo even qualify as a game? Walking around empty levels with one hazard on every three screens or so is certainly stretching the definition. It certainly isn't a platformer.
 
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Cynical wrote:
I'm saying that almost no one could ever be "jealous" of someone for having a game industry job, given how easy it is to get one, and how little compensation you receive for it, and how crappy the conditions are, and how crappy the hours are.

I think you'll find a lot of people are jealous and want to get into the games industry, but can't. It's why the hours and salaries are so bad in so many game dev studios - they've got people clamoring at the door for a chance to get into game dev. and can replace a member of staff at the drop of a hat if you make a fuss.
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Cynical wrote:
No, the reason I don't play indie games is because, with few exceptions, they're total crap made by talentless hacks using terms like "retro", "experimental", and "art" to hide the fact that they fail to understand the genres they are trying to ape.
Nice way of generalizing and insulting an entire group in one sentence. Not my preferred way to discuss topics.

The link is at least as venomous.

This either has troll bait plastered all over, or it's just a general lack of polite manners. Or both.
I like polite. VGG is polite.

/-M-
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_Kael_ wrote:
Cynical wrote:
No, the reason I don't play indie games is because, with few exceptions, they're total crap made by talentless hacks using terms like "retro", "experimental", and "art" to hide the fact that they fail to understand the genres they are trying to ape.
Nice way of generalizing and insulting an entire group in one sentence. Not my preferred way to discuss topics.

The link is at least as venomous.

This either has troll bait plastered all over, or it's just a general lack of polite manners. Or both.
I like polite. VGG is polite.

/-M-

What, as opposed to the insinuation made by yohanleafheart (and many other people all across the internet) that if you don't like indie games, it's because you're a brainwashed pawn of the industry that's addicted to shiny graphics?
 
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Cynical wrote:
_Kael_ wrote:
Cynical wrote:
No, the reason I don't play indie games is because, with few exceptions, they're total crap made by talentless hacks using terms like "retro", "experimental", and "art" to hide the fact that they fail to understand the genres they are trying to ape.
Nice way of generalizing and insulting an entire group in one sentence. Not my preferred way to discuss topics.

The link is at least as venomous.

This either has troll bait plastered all over, or it's just a general lack of polite manners. Or both.
I like polite. VGG is polite.

/-M-

What, as opposed to the insinuation made by yohanleafheart (and many other people all across the internet) that if you don't like indie games, it's because you're a brainwashed pawn of the industry that's addicted to shiny graphics?


From my part, yeah, I might have exageratted on how direct was the criticism, but it is still valid. A lot of people (which I do think you are part when you take a lot about the value of production) are more interested in the shiny than on the gameplay. Think for example people that are in love with Final Fantasy and hate any other jRPG. It is a clear case of loving the shiny.
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Cynical wrote:
This is after months of people criticizing her writing in DA2, especially her writing for the character Anders.


90% of the critics about Anders, at least on the ones I read on the web, was because he would hit on you if you are male. So it is not about the writting it self, but about homophobia.
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Cynical wrote:
_Kael_ wrote:
Cynical wrote:
No, the reason I don't play indie games is because, with few exceptions, they're total crap made by talentless hacks using terms like "retro", "experimental", and "art" to hide the fact that they fail to understand the genres they are trying to ape.
Nice way of generalizing and insulting an entire group in one sentence. Not my preferred way to discuss topics.

The link is at least as venomous.

This either has troll bait plastered all over, or it's just a general lack of polite manners. Or both.
I like polite. VGG is polite.

/-M-

What, as opposed to the insinuation made by yohanleafheart (and many other people all across the internet) that if you don't like indie games, it's because you're a brainwashed pawn of the industry that's addicted to shiny graphics?
To me, there is a big difference between an insinuation and calling bad names.
Like there's difference between criticizing someone, and threatening to rape that person.
Please tell me you agree on this.

I don't do the internet. I like VGG because it's polite. No one here called you a brainwashed addicted pawn of the industry.
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_Kael_ wrote:


I don't do the internet. I like VGG because it's polite.


Me too. In many ways this thread is rather uplifting.
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yohanleafheart wrote:
A lot of people (which I do think you are part when you take a lot about the value of production) are more interested in the shiny than on the gameplay.

Where to even begin with this sentence?

Well, I suppose that this would be a good place to start.

Now, assuming that what you mean by "gameplay" is "mechanics (including play control) and challenge design*", then you're making a huge mistake by thinking it's completely separate from graphics and sound design, since the latter inform the "feel" of a game to such a high degree. Simple example: why is simply moving around much more fun in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night than it is in Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance? The two games have very similar movement options, jump trajectories, control response times, etc- however, SotN's Alucard is gorgeously animated, while Juste in HoD animates with all of the grace of a drunken football hooligan attempting to dance Swan Lake. Likewise, Blizzard and Valve have both found that players tend to feel that an option is underpowered if it has a weak sound and/or animation, and don't use it; and that if they improve the sound and animation of that option, without even tweaking it mechanically in any way, players will report that it is powerful and effective.

Of course, this isn't entirely tied to the level of technology used in the production (for instance, Castlevania's whip and jump mechanics create the right "feel" beautifully, whereas Mischief Maker's jump/grab/shake/throw mechanics are completely without any "oomph" at all), nor is it the sole deciding factor in a good game (Metroid Fusion, Half-Life 2, and Gunstar Heroes are all deeply flawed despite nailing the feel; meanwhile, despite having a "feel" that's a bit off, Contra, System Shock 2, and Espgaluda range from good to amazing), but claiming that the aesthetic elements of a game are completely disparate from the mechanical aspects is a gross oversimplification, just like trying to separate the story from the challenge in a western RPG (hey, I managed to bring a completely derailed conversation full-circle!).

Oh, and yet another flaw with your sentence: you're trying to figure out what I look for in a game by a guide to see if a genre is dead or not, when my opinions on over 200 games, a few of them with comments more in-depth than most of this site's reviews, are only one click away.


*(I use the term "challenge design" in place of "level design" because it's more encompassing of different genres; for instance, in a western RPG, you'd need to add terms like "encounter design", or in a sim-game like Rollercoaster Tycoon, you'd need terms like "scenario design". If this bothers you, feel free to replace with the term "level design")
 
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Cynical wrote:
No, the reason I don't play indie games is because, with few exceptions, they're total crap made by talentless hacks using terms like "retro", "experimental", and "art" to hide the fact that they fail to understand the genres they are trying to ape.

I would recommend reading every article linked on this page: http://insomnia.ac/reviews/introducing_the_indie_scene/


Hard to take him too seriously, when his highest rated games are Burnout 2: Point of Impact and Serious Sam: The First Encounter. Really? Games which are about a decade old?

While I'll agree that not all indie games are great, I'd say the good/crap ratio is probably about the same as in the bigger game companies. Also, if you are spending $5 or less, the impact of it being crap is a lot less. You also hear pretty quickly which are good and which aren't.

That being said, I've seen a lot of indie games which are pretty darn good. Right now, one of the better games I'm playing right now is from that "dead" 2D platformer genre, Sideway: New York. I'd say that for most of the indie games I have bought, I probably got more than my money's worth out of it. Many of them are worth more to me than a lot of big name titles.

Quote:
I'm saying that almost no one could ever be "jealous" of someone for having a game industry job, given how easy it is to get one, and how little compensation you receive for it, and how crappy the conditions are, and how crappy the hours are. Thinking otherwise is just a delusion of grandeur for Heppler.


I'll go back to my friend, who was an experienced project manager for a board game company, who was laid off and wanted to find a job in the video game industry. After months of looking, his only offer was with Zenimax for a QA position that would pay less than what he was making. Now, they are looking to put him someplace to better fit his skillset, but I don't think his job search was all that easy, particularly since he was willing to relocate if necessary. So, stop talking about stuff you don't know about. It makes you look stupid.
 
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TheLongshot wrote:

Hard to take him too seriously, when his highest rated games are Burnout 2: Point of Impact and Serious Sam: The First Encounter. Really? Games which are about a decade old?

So, games that are older can't be good? Are you kidding me?

Also, you apparently didn't look too closely at the site at all, given that Red Seeds Profile was *on the front page* and was rated higher than Serious Sam: The First Encounter, and that one click to the reviews archive would have shown you a bunch of 5-star reviews of games ranging in release date from 1987 to 2008.

Quote:
You also hear pretty quickly which are good and which aren't.

Given that people say that Braid, Seiklus, Knytt, Knytt Stories, Spelunky, I Wanna Be The Guy, Psychosomnium, Darwinia, and Limbo are good, I personally can't trust the opinion of the "indie game scene" at all.

Quote:
I'll go back to my friend, who was an experienced project manager for a board game company, who was laid off and wanted to find a job in the video game industry. After months of looking, his only offer was with Zenimax for a QA position that would pay less than what he was making. Now, they are looking to put him someplace to better fit his skillset, but I don't think his job search was all that easy, particularly since he was willing to relocate if necessary. So, stop talking about stuff you don't know about. It makes you look stupid.

Why on earth would a project manager for a board game company be at all qualified to be a project manager on software products?

If he was a project manager at a company that released software before going to Zenimax, his experience would be a lot more relevant.
 
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TheLongshot wrote:
Hard to take him too seriously, when his highest rated games are Burnout 2: Point of Impact and Serious Sam: The First Encounter. Really? Games which are about a decade old?

You hit the nail right on the head - those are much too new to be any good.

Give me an 80's or 90's classic any day!
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