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Subject: Thanks, FFG! rss

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The Hound
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So I've spent the last day or two over at the Marvel Dice Masters forum.

Originally, the game looked intriguing, but then I noticed that WizKids decided to sell the game with a collectible sales model. You're welcome to head over there if you're interested in hearing the pros and cons.

At any rate, I just wanted to give a huge shout out of thanks to FFG. I don't know if they actually pioneered the LCG model (and I mean the model itself rather than the fancy initials) but they've certainly done tons to bring it to prominence. It's a sales model that puts the gamer first, giving me the ability to buy precisely what I want, and only what I want, even at the potential risk of lesser profits than a successful CCG.

So thanks, FFG!




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The Hound
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Oh, and btw, if FFG wants to make a Living Dice Game, I'm on board.

If it's an LDG in the Netrunner universe, I'll preorder.

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Travis Schneider
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If they weren't the originators,they were pretty damn close. But the LCG is the best system for customizable card games that keeps the player at a higher priority than the money to be made off of it.

Now, if FFG made any other Android-set games, I'd also be instantly getting it. I really wish we could get an expansion for Infiltration. But another customizable game would be awesome.
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Corwin David
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I've seen a few "customizable card games" that do something similar. Agree that FFG definitely brought the idea to fruition if they weren't the originators.
 
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It is called strategy. They sell something in a way that it seems they care more about customers rather than profit, and more people will buy stuff from them, leading to more profit.

FFG is not selfless, it is just very smart.
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Aaron Smith
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King of Odonata wrote:
If they weren't the originators,they were pretty damn close. But the LCG is the best system for customizable card games that keeps the player at a higher priority than the money to be made off of it.

Now, if FFG made any other Android-set games, I'd also be instantly getting it. I really wish we could get an expansion for Infiltration. But another customizable game would be awesome.

I'm assuming you are familiar with the original Android board game?

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/39339/android
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Chris Long
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I think people tend to equate these business decisions to individual motivations, like FFG is being nice or Wizkids just wants to screw people over. But in reality its all just a business decision.

FFG tried to make CCG's, but they generally weren't very successful. Their market tends to be at the hobby-level board game, so they adjusted their product to meet their customer base. It worked on a trial basis with Cthulhu (asylum packs came out in that game years before the "LCG" was unveiled), so they decided to transition all of their collectible card games into that model.

It has made a lot of sense for FFG, but who's to say it would work as well for WizKid's and their product? Wizkids have a great property with the marvel comics universe and they are clearly trying to market to a different audience. Wizkids thinks that it makes more sense for the long-term success of their game for them to go to collectible. I have no idea if that's the right call but only time will tell. And I sure as hell know a lot less about those marketing decisions than Wizkids, so I'm not going to second guess them.

I understand if people don't like collectible games because they have to dump a bunch of money into them. I don't like that either. But can you really deny that it is a paradigm that works? For goodness sake, Lego Minifigs have consistently proven over the last couple years that this is a market waiting to throw their money at this kind of thing. I can't deny Wizkids looking at that and saying "we need to be at the cash registers". They are marketing it as an impulse buy and I say more power to them.

All that said, I'm very glad FFG created the LCG model and I hope it sticks around for a long time. I don't think it fits every game, but its a good model for some games.
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The Hound
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radynski wrote:
I think people tend to equate these business decisions to individual motivations, like FFG is being nice or Wizkids just wants to screw people over. But in reality its all just a business decision.


Decision from gaming company that benefits gamers - yeah!

Decision from gaming company that disses gamers - not so much.

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Chris Long
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The Hound wrote:
radynski wrote:
I think people tend to equate these business decisions to individual motivations, like FFG is being nice or Wizkids just wants to screw people over. But in reality its all just a business decision.

Decision from gaming company that benefits gamers - yeah!

Decision from gaming company that disses gamers - not so much.

Well yeah, but the decisions they make are not dissing gamers on purpose. They are just trying to make the most successful game they can. If they had made the game in an LCG type format and it had failed, who's fault is that? It's just a matter of what market they are trying to attract and how they feel they can best accomplish it.

I guess I'm suggesting that you need to widen your definition of "gamers". It seems as though you are currently viewing gamers only as people who are similar to yourself. You are neglecting to include the people that enjoy the collectible format. Or for that matter, people that just casually game. Is my 12-year old cousin's gaming experience somehow less valid than yours just because he likes Magic and doesn't give a crap about Netrunner?
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The Hound
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radynski wrote:
The Hound wrote:
radynski wrote:
I think people tend to equate these business decisions to individual motivations, like FFG is being nice or Wizkids just wants to screw people over. But in reality its all just a business decision.

Decision from gaming company that benefits gamers - yeah!

Decision from gaming company that disses gamers - not so much.

Well yeah, but the decisions they make are not dissing gamers on purpose. They are just trying to make the most successful game they can. If they had made the game in an LCG type format and it had failed, who's fault is that? It's just a matter of what market they are trying to attract and how they feel they can best accomplish it.

I guess I'm suggesting that you need to widen your definition of "gamers". It seems as though you are currently viewing gamers only as people who are similar to yourself. You are neglecting to include the people that enjoy the collectible format. Or for that matter, people that just casually game. Is my 12-year old cousin's gaming experience somehow less valid than yours just because he likes Magic and doesn't give a crap about Netrunner?


I have no idea where you're getting ideas about my views on the validity of your cousin's gaming, as I said no such thing.

Regarding gamers, I'm obviously talking about the type of gamer that frequents this site. The kind that wants to control his purchases. I don't recall anyone on the Marvel forum suggesting that the collectible model was preferable. Just that it's an annoyance they're willing to accommodate if the game rocks. If you like blind purchases, more power to you, but I think you're in the minority on BGG. I'm open to proof to the contrary.

Finally, I'd be hesitant to throw around your original premise. As a corporate CPA, I've gotten the chance to become very familiar with the management and corporate culture of dozens of companies, and you can rest assured that while all companies want to be profitable, there is a great variance in the degree to which they care about their clients and the products they provide. So no, it's not so clear to me that "it's all business" and we're just random victims or benefactors in the corporate game of finances.


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radynski wrote:
The Hound wrote:
radynski wrote:
I think people tend to equate these business decisions to individual motivations, like FFG is being nice or Wizkids just wants to screw people over. But in reality its all just a business decision.

Decision from gaming company that benefits gamers - yeah!

Decision from gaming company that disses gamers - not so much.

Well yeah, but the decisions they make are not dissing gamers on purpose. They are just trying to make the most successful game they can. If they had made the game in an LCG type format and it had failed, who's fault is that? It's just a matter of what market they are trying to attract and how they feel they can best accomplish it.

I guess I'm suggesting that you need to widen your definition of "gamers". It seems as though you are currently viewing gamers only as people who are similar to yourself. You are neglecting to include the people that enjoy the collectible format. Or for that matter, people that just casually game. Is my 12-year old cousin's gaming experience somehow less valid than yours just because he likes Magic and doesn't give a crap about Netrunner?
Less valid? Nope.
A bigger sucker when spending his(I assume at 12 probably more accurately his parent's) money? Yep.
That's not even getting into the comparison of the game of Magic versus Netrunner. Just the financial side.

I played magic for years. I started out as a sucker too. Then I found deals and amassed a collection.... and trade for or won most of what I needed.

It's a model of gaming that P.T Barnum would have been very proud of.
 
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The Hound wrote:
I have no idea where you're getting ideas about my views on the validity of your cousin's gaming, as I said no such thing.

I wasn't suggesting you hate my cousin or think he sucks or something. I was merely suggesting that you are implicitly excluding him from your definition of "gamers" when you make statements about what benefits or disses gamers. As such, I was suggesting that those statements are perhaps far too broad, and (back to my original point) they are ascribing personality motivations to companies that don't have them.

All I'm really trying to say is that I don't believe Wizkids is trying to "screw" anyone.

The Hound wrote:
If you like blind purchases, more power to you, but I think you're in the minority on BGG. I'm open to proof to the contrary.

I agree that people who like the CCG business model are probably the minority on this site. I was just trying to remind everyone that the BGG community is most likely a very small minority when looking at the venn diagram of "gamers". This is an awesome site and I'm really glad it exists, but we occasionally get too big of an ego about how important we are. Let's just acknowledge for a second that its the collectible CCG model that keeps most of our FLGS's in business at all.
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Chris Long
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And just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle...

Let me reiterate that I agree completely with the sentiment of thanks to FFG for introducing the LCG model. I know my wallet appreciates it. I think its a really cool way to produce those games, and I love having access to all of the cards without a lot of collecting headache.
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Patrick K
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As previously stated, FFG was trying the CCG model with Call of Cthulhu and Game of Thrones but they were struggling with it. They switched to the LCG model which lowered production cost, which in turn means they had to sell less copies to make a profit. Collectible business models in no way disrespect gamers. It's just a model that encourages trading, 3rd market and community. Wizards of the Coast is extremely good to their players.

Wizkids does have an LCG dice game called Quarriors. Wizkids having a history of success in both the LCG model and the collectible model (with Heroclix) just wanted to see if the CCG model would work with this property.

If FFG decided to put alternate art cards or unique cards in the draft sets would you fault them for doing that, since it adds a CCG element at that point?
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Iron Crown slowly switched from a random distribution to a fixed distribution for their Middle Earth CCG in the late 90s. The early sets were pretty standard CCG distributions, 1 rare per pack and all that. Later sets (Against the Shadow, The White Hand) made the distribution more generous and gamer-friendly with smaller booster packs, but with better frequencies that meant you could get a complete set buying many fewer cards. Then they finally ditched the randomized model, and their last few products were all fixed distribution: the challenge decks and the Balrog set. The Balrog was pretty nice, it was two large fixed packs, each of which was about half a tournament-legal constructed deck and if you bought one of each you got everything you needed (although if I remember right, if you were a hard-core completist you still might want multiples of each pack, but even for high-power competitive play one of each was fine).

As far as I know, that's the first example of a company selling a deck-building, large-card-set product in non-random distributions.

FFG's LCG products are still pretty annoying in that if you want to get a real playset that includes enough of a few critical cards (like Account Siphon), you need to buy 2 or even three copies of the core set just to get at a small handful of cards. Neither Netrunner nor Lord of the Rings really had enough cards in the core sets to do interesting deck-building either and with a slow rate of card release, it takes a while for there to be an interesting number of cards out there (Lord of the Rings was a much more egregious offender on that than Netrunner though). Anyway, I wish FFG would take the next step to making their products more accessible, they've still got some significant distribution problems for the casual player, but it's certainly more accessible than than standard Magic model.
 
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The Hound wrote:


Oh, and btw, if FFG wants to make a Living Dice Game, I'm on board.

If it's an LDG in the Netrunner universe, I'll preorder.


Dragon Dice LDG, make it happen FFG!!
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Chris Farrell
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pCAB wrote:
Wizkids does have an LCG dice game called Quarriors.

Quarriors is not really an analog to an LCG. It's just a boardgame with some expansions.
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radynski wrote:
The Hound wrote:
If you like blind purchases, more power to you, but I think you're in the minority on BGG. I'm open to proof to the contrary.
I agree that people who like the CCG business model are probably the minority on this site. I was just trying to remind everyone that the BGG community is most likely a very small minority when looking at the venn diagram of "gamers". This is an awesome site and I'm really glad it exists, but we occasionally get too big of an ego about how important we are. Let's just acknowledge for a second that its the collectible CCG model that keeps most of our FLGS's in business at all.
QFT.

It's one thing to prefer an LCG model of game distribution, it's another thing to be the kid in the cafeteria who hates bologna sandwiches and decides to get pissed off when someone else has the nerve to bring a bologna sandwich to lunch. Why people feel the need to insult every person who has ever bought a booster pack of anything as a "sucker" and insult every game company who produces them as a "gaming company that disses gamers" I will never understand. BUT... I can always count on BGG to keep cranking out these angry folks, again and again and again.

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pCAB wrote:
As previously stated, FFG was trying the CCG model with Call of Cthulhu and Game of Thrones but they were struggling with it. They switched to the LCG model which lowered production cost, which in turn means they had to sell less copies to make a profit. Collectible business models in no way disrespect gamers.
If assuming someone is a sucker is not a disrespect I don't know what it.

pCAB wrote:

It's just a model that encourages trading, 3rd market and community.
Glad to see LCGs don't encourage community....
pCAB wrote:

Wizards of the Coast is extremely good to their players.
Gotta keep crack addicts happy.


pCAB wrote:

Wizkids does have an LCG dice game called Quarriors.
Do you know anything at all about quarriors? I assume not as otherwise you would never have said something like this. It's a deck building game like dominion except it uses dice.

pCAB wrote:

If FFG decided to put alternate art cards or unique cards in the draft sets would you fault them for doing that, since it adds a CCG element at that point?
Nope, doesn't change the cards you can play. Just how they look. It changes nothing.
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The Hound wrote:

So I've spent the last day or two over at the Marvel Dice Masters forum.

Originally, the game looked intriguing, but then I noticed that WizKids decided to sell the game with a collectible sales model. You're welcome to head over there if you're interested in hearing the pros and cons.

At any rate, I just wanted to give a huge shout out of thanks to FFG. I don't know if they actually pioneered the LCG model (and I mean the model itself rather than the fancy initials) but they've certainly done tons to bring it to prominence. It's a sales model that puts the gamer first, giving me the ability to buy precisely what I want, and only what I want, even at the potential risk of lesser profits than a successful CCG.

So thanks, FFG!


I am gonna get into Marvel Dice Masters. I passed on Quarriors cause of the steep price and limited customizability, but for a CCG model MDM's $1/booster rate is not bad at all.

I know Netrunner and MDM cannot be equated, but for the price of a Datapack I would get 20 cards and 20 dice or 30 cards and 30 dice @ MSRP.

Only 10~ cards can be fielded on your side, so you can go several matchups with very distinct teams.

Even if I get repeats, the extra dice can be fielded until the max limit listed on the card.

I'm excited for this game and it could be a nice change of pace from the brain burning sessions of Netrunner.

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The Hound wrote:

So I've spent the last day or two over at the Marvel Dice Masters forum.

Originally, the game looked intriguing, but then I noticed that WizKids decided to sell the game with a collectible sales model. You're welcome to head over there if you're interested in hearing the pros and cons.

At any rate, I just wanted to give a huge shout out of thanks to FFG. I don't know if they actually pioneered the LCG model (and I mean the model itself rather than the fancy initials) but they've certainly done tons to bring it to prominence. It's a sales model that puts the gamer first, giving me the ability to buy precisely what I want, and only what I want, even at the potential risk of lesser profits than a successful CCG.

So thanks, FFG!

Cryptozoic, the publisher of The Adventure Time: Card Wars card game just announced they were going to expand the game using random booster packs. Here are the reactions to that:
So now it's Random Boosters
Crypto pulls a Clinton.
From Crypto Website: Boosters Not Really Random

What's interesting is that they sold the starter decks with no clear indication that they'd be expanding it via boosters. In fact, they evidently told some people that they *weren't* planning to go that route.

As for who came up with the LCG model first, Eric Lang designed a customizable card game called Mystick Domination that was published by a company called Anoch. The game was sold in 4 sets, each with a defined set of cards. They called it a Premium Card Game. The fact that Eric is now with FFG may be a good indicator where FFG got the idea from.

 
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I'm also really excited about Marvel Dice Masters. I enjoyed Quarriors when I played it, but found the graphic design a visual affront. And I do fondly recall the excitement of opening up a magic booster, and being able to recreate that for $1 per expansion for a casual game is just about the best way to do collectibility.

Even though the LCG format is absolutely the best model for a game like Netrunner, there's still room for a variety of approaches.
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Oh man, now I just really really want a good Living Dice Game surprise
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Zebadiah wrote:
Oh man, now I just really really want a good Living Dice Game surprise
Sign me up if it's Android related.

As a side-note, I could see an Android TV show working really well.
 
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corkysru wrote:
If assuming someone is a sucker is not a disrespect I don't know what it. & Gotta keep crack addicts happy.

Why do you automatically assume a ccg model is aimed at suckers. Are you implying that the people who purchase ccgs are not intelligent enough to know that they are buying a product with randomly inserted products? Have you seen the Netrunner forums the way we drool and fight over cards on here. Netrunner players are just as addicted.

corkysru wrote:
Glad to see LCGs don't encourage community....

LCGs also encourage community it wasn't an exclusive argument, but I agree my phrasing did seem to imply it. I see 3rd market and trading for the promo stuff also.

corkysru wrote:
Do you know anything at all about quarriors? I assume not as otherwise you would never have said something like this. It's a deck building game like dominion except it uses dice.

An LCG is no different then a board game with expansions, look at Arkham Horror. All the small box and big box expansions sure look a lot like the LCG releases. Marvel Dice Masters is to Quarriors as Magic is to Netrunner.


corkysru wrote:
pCAB wrote:
If FFG decided to put alternate art cards or unique cards in the draft sets would you fault them for doing that, since it adds a CCG element at that point?
Nope, doesn't change the cards you can play. Just how they look. It changes nothing.
I did say unique cards too, so that would change the cards you play. When the draft packs were first announced someone brought up the prospect of alt art or unique cards. Some disliked the idea saying its unfair others liked it.
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