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Just to promote some discussion for the fun of it, I thought I'd do a series of forum posts based on the 53 genres listed in VGG.* Here's a GeekList of all 53 threads.

This thread's genre: 4X Strategy

Listed below are the top-ranked games in this genre. How does the list fit with your experience?


Have you played any of these games? Which ones? Do you agree or disagree with the ranking? How would you rank the games listed? Are there other games in the genre that you think should be in the top ranks?

And by the way, what do you think of this genre in general?

Civilization II
Master of Orion II: Battle at Antares
Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword
Civilization IV
Civilization
Master of Magic
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
Master of Orion
Civilization V
Civilization V: Brave New World


*In case you don't know how to find the VGG genres and rankings, hover over Browse at the top of the screen, then click Genres. Click a genre, and scroll down to Linked Items. Click the Sort window, and sort by Rank.
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This may be my favorite genre, and there are some great games listed here. I think Civilization gets too much attention, though, and I can't see Civ II being at the top of the list (I'm most impressed with Civ IV myself). My personal favorite is Master of Orion; it's the most streamlined, and I like that better than "kitchen sink" games.

I'd include Age of Wonders. AoW3 is my go-to game right now. It's inspired by Master of Magic, and I'm not sure I'll ever go back and play MoM again.
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
This may be my favorite genre, and there are some great games listed here. I think Civilization gets too much attention, though, and I can't see Civ II being at the top of the list [...]

I'd include Age of Wonders. AoW3 is my go-to game right now.


Agreed on all quoted points. I only started seriously playing Civ at V, however, so that'd be my pick. Another that I'd like to see more of is Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes, despite its age starting to show and it being a game that would be absolutely perfect for multiplayer but having no such features.

Reinstalled Age of Wonders 3 last night. I had suggested to my wife that we should play another 4x together. Pickings are slim for local co-op so I'm glad that the few options I have are as good as they are.
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tdphillips wrote:
Reinstalled Age of Wonders 3 last night. I had suggested to my wife that we should play another 4x together. Pickings are slim for local co-op so I'm glad that the few options I have are as good as they are.

Heroes of Might and Magic is another good game for hotseat, co-op play. My wife and I tried it once. I think we only stopped because it was a little awkward to share the desktop computer we were using at the time.
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I think CIV II is at the top because it kept all the things that made the original great and added things that enhanced the features of the core parts of the game. I still miss the advisors from this game!

I've played all the ones listed and enjoyed them all except for 2:

Master of Magic- On GOG and here, I heard very positive things about the game and I decided to give it a try when it went on sale. I did not enjoy it. The graphics were horrible (reminded me of CIV II on the original PlayStation) and the gameplay was soooooooo slow.

Master of Orion- The original had terrible graphics and gameplay felt more like spreadsheet to me.

The rest:

MoO II- Loved it and was my favorite 4x space game until I played Galactic Civilizations by Stardock which replaced it.

CIV IV
- prefer it over V. A lot of people will say it is an improvement over III which I grudgingly agree except for the way it handled generals. Also there was a couple of mods that made the game so much fun to play such as the Star Trek mod and the mod that allowed you to play from caveman.

Alpha Centauri- the game was just too alien for me. The factions, the tech tree, and the ability to create your own vehicles(?) was just too bizarre.

CIV V- I liked that they attempted to shake the game up by changing some core parts of the game such as the use of hexes and hexes only allowing one unit to occupy it. However, for people like me who like to expand rapidly and dominate militarily, it was somewhat painful due to the slow progression and the negative things that the game imposes on you when you try to expand too quickly.

My favorite of the CIV games is CIV III (jury is still out on CIV VI). It was a departure from CIV II in the way resources were handled and the introduction of nation borders but without all the complications that CIV IV added such as an expanded religion.

I agree mostly with how the games are ranked although I'm surprised that HoMM III wasn't listed. Also why isn't there the RTS games that fall under this?
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Oni no board wrote:
I think CIV II is at the top because it kept all the things that made the original great and added things that enhanced the features of the core parts of the game. I still miss the advisors from this game!

I miss them too--all except Elvis. I thought the Elvis bit was overdone. But I think I fell in love with the foreign-relations adviser.

Quote:
I've played all the ones listed and enjoyed them all except for 2:

Master of Magic- On GOG and here, I heard very positive things about the game and I decided to give it a try when it went on sale. I did not enjoy it. The graphics were horrible (reminded me of CIV II on the original PlayStation) and the gameplay was soooooooo slow.

I have a soft spot for MoM because I played the heck out of it when it was new and there was nothing better in the world. I hated tactical combat in Civ but loved it in MoM. I hated fiddling with city management in Civ, and MoM freed me from it--cities largely take care of themselves, and there's an in-game tool to help you find good city locations. On top of all that, there's the customization--choosing your wizard skills, spell books, and starting race to make each game uniquely yours.

But in recent years, even with the fan-made patches I've tried, MoM has been a little disappointing. Mainly, it's just a bit too slow in the beginning; it seems to take forever to build basic structures in a city and then put together an army strong enough to tackle monster lairs. The pace picks up later, and it all works out, but I don't have the patience for it anymore

Quote:
Master of Orion- The original had terrible graphics and gameplay felt more like spreadsheet to me.

Hmm. To me, the graphics are functional and varied enough, though they're certainly not pretty or modern. Functionality is all I care about anyway. If I want eye and ear candy, I'll watch a movie instead of playing a game. I guess I can see what you mean about the "spreadsheet": tweaking the sliders takes the player away from the action; it's a lot different than, say, managing workers in Civ. But that's precisely what I love about MoO: it frees me from having to do much of anything in the way of managing resources. I can set the sliders and forget them for a long while. Then I can focus squarely on what interests me most: exploring, colonizing, and competing for territory.

Quote:
The rest:

MoO II- Loved it and was my favorite 4x space game until I played Galactic Civilizations by Stardock which replaced it.

Just a few months ago, I finally got around to giving MoO2 a good try. Something about it always put me off, and I'd just play MoO instead. But I played every race, including a custom race, until I won on Average and Hard levels, and then I continued playing until I won a game on Impossible. I ended up feeling I had the full MoO2 experience (though I have a lot left to learn).

I ended up shrugging. It's a very good game alright, with some cool features. But MoO is a cleaner design and works just as well for me. I don't care about customizing my race, and I don't like fiddling with the much more complex and time-consuming tactical combat in MoO2.

I have played Galactic Civilizations a few times. It seemed promising, but I didn't follow through with it for some reason. For one thing, I feel hopelessly behind now: I was playing GalCiv1 when GalCiv3 was already going strong. Now I wouldn't know which version to choose.

Quote:

CIV IV
- prefer it over V. A lot of people will say it is an improvement over III which I grudgingly agree except for the way it handled generals. Also there was a couple of mods that made the game so much fun to play such as the Star Trek mod and the mod that allowed you to play from caveman.

I played I, II, and III, then later jumped to V. I had bought IV when it came out, but my wife and I didn't like the 3D look, and our computer had problems (the movies would make it crash). So I just caught up to IV last year, and I agree it's the best I've tried.

Quote:
Alpha Centauri- the game was just too alien for me. The factions, the tech tree, and the ability to create your own vehicles(?) was just too bizarre.

The theme is no problem for me; I can handle bizarre and alien. But the tech tree is hard to get used to; the names don't mean anything until you make a point of learning what they mean and what the things do. The DYO units were a feature even the designers regretted (I read that in an interview with Brian Reynolds); I never use it--it's possible to just automate it, along with most everything else in the game. What I don't like about SMAC is that you're stuck with seven factions no matter what map size you choose. I like to be able to play on a smaller map with fewer factions so it doesn't get crowded. Also, resource management is a big problem, as it is in all the Civ-based games. If I were thorough, I'd send out supply crawlers, but I can't be bothered with all that. It's cool, though, that even the oceans can be settled in SMAC.

Quote:
CIV V- I liked that they attempted to shake the game up by changing some core parts of the game such as the use of hexes and hexes only allowing one unit to occupy it. However, for people like me who like to expand rapidly and dominate militarily, it was somewhat painful due to the slow progression and the negative things that the game imposes on you when you try to expand too quickly.

I agree. It's the first iteration of Civ where I could tolerate and even enjoy warfare. But the artificial strictures on expansion spoiled most of my fun, leaving me with a long and mostly boring game.

Quote:
My favorite of the CIV games is CIV III (jury is still out on CIV VI). It was a departure from CIV II in the way resources were handled and the introduction of nation borders but without all the complications that CIV IV added such as an expanded religion.

I just bought a cheap copy of Civ III and played it a little just to remind myself what it was like. I found there was too much scrambling for every little chunk of vacant territory, and the AI players are overly aggressive (I've found them so in most every version of Civ). I also recall the Conquests expansion limiting resources in a way that utterly spoiled the game for me: I'd be ready to build a spaceship or something, but I'd find I was out of aluminum or some key resource; and I'd have no choice but to make war on someone just to grab some aluminum. Military action was the last thing I wanted to have to deal with at that stage of the game.

Quote:
I agree mostly with how the games are ranked although I'm surprised that HoMM III wasn't listed.

I'd have to check the rest of the genre's database to see if VGG even considers HoMM a 4X game. It's definitely a well-designed gem, in any case--one of the best.

Quote:
Also why isn't there the RTS games that fall under this?

Is there such a thing as a 4X RTS game? I think I've always seen the 4X genre limited to TBS games.
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Patrick Carroll wrote:

Quote:
Also why isn't there the RTS games that fall under this?

Is there such a thing as a 4X RTS game? I think I've always seen the 4X genre limited to TBS games.


Stellaris, for one. Technically pausable real time but you're probably not going to be doing much of that in multiplayer.

Heads off to check

Whoops. Tagged 4x elsewhere but not on the Geek.
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This is not my favorite genre, but it is my husband's. He loves 4X games. If he is playing anything on a computer there is a 2/3rds chance it is a 4X game (and a 1/3rd change it is a roguelike.)

There is such a thing as 4X RTS games! Sins of a Solar Empire is one.
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
I played I, II, and III, then later jumped to V. I had bought IV when it came out, but my wife and I didn't like the 3D look, and our computer had problems (the movies would make it crash). So I just caught up to IV last year, and I agree it's the best I've tried.

My Windows 7 computer had trouble running the opening scene for the base and the dlc too. It wasn't until I upgraded to a more powerful laptop that I was able to run the opening scenes for it and its dlc. If you ever fire that game up again, I recommend you try some of these mods:
Final Frontier- It is a neat 4x space game.https://www.moddb.com/mods/final-frontier-plus
Caveman2Cosmos- Allows you to play even further back in history as well as well as further forward in history.
https://www.moddb.com/mods/caveman2cosmos
Fall from Heaven- a neat fantasy world mod.
https://www.moddb.com/mods/fall-from-heaven-ii
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Oni no board wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
I played I, II, and III, then later jumped to V. I had bought IV when it came out, but my wife and I didn't like the 3D look, and our computer had problems (the movies would make it crash). So I just caught up to IV last year, and I agree it's the best I've tried.

My Windows 7 computer had trouble running the opening scene for the base and the dlc too. It wasn't until I upgraded to a more powerful laptop that I was able to run the opening scenes for it and its dlc. If you ever fire that game up again, I recommend you try some of these mods:
Final Frontier- It is a neat 4x space game.https://www.moddb.com/mods/final-frontier-plus
Caveman2Cosmos- Allows you to play even further back in history as well as well as further forward in history.
https://www.moddb.com/mods/caveman2cosmos
Fall from Heaven- a neat fantasy world mod.
https://www.moddb.com/mods/fall-from-heaven-ii

I have played two of those (the first and third), at least a little. In fact, I played Final Frontier pretty recently. Not quite long enough to get the hang of it, though. But it was pretty cool. The GOG version of Civ IV comes packed with those mods and a few more.
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I said something about most of these games in the Strategy thread, but this gives me a chance to talk about MoM and two other Civ games.

Master of Magic was, understandably, a huge hit when it came out; and today it remains a highly praised classic. It shows its age, though, and even die-hard fans wish somebody would give it a face-lift to bring it up to date. Back in the day, it seemed like it could be my "one game for life." Playing MoM, and reading the thick Prima strategy guidebook for it, was a rich, wonderful, totally absorbing experience.

Then life intervened, and I was away from the game for years--until a few years ago, when I bought a copy from GOG. I soon warmed up to it and was as enthused as I'd ever been. But besides the dated graphics, I was a little put off by the bugs and some of the frustrations I'd forgotten. Still a good game, but clearly I had glorified the past.

However, I noticed a fan had created an unofficial patch, so I tried that. More recently, another fan has completed the extensive patch job, and there's a version 1.50 (or is it 1.51?) out there. I tried it a few times, and it does clean up the game in many ways. Especially impressive is that it makes the diplomacy system work, when it never did before.

Yet, it has gotten to where MoM feels a little too slow and bland to me now. Even the fellow who finished patching it is working on a mod called Caster of Magic, which attempts to improve game play via sometimes drastic changes to the original game. I haven't tried CoM, but I like one thing I read about it: the process of city development is sped up. In the early game, it seems to take forever to make a city productive in MoM; and until you do, you can't do much of anything but explore and research spells.

So, I've stopped playing MoM, though I have fond memories of it and still have it installed on my system.

Someone said Age of Wonders is the spiritual successor to MoM. Actually, there are several games that could claim that, but maybe AoW was the first attempt. I've played all the AoW games since 1999 or so, and I liked them well enough, but they never bowled me over. This past September, though, I finally got AoW3, and I'm very impressed with it. It gets a lot of things right, and it certainly looks and sounds a lot better than MoM. Somehow, AoW falls short of wowing me the way MoM originally did, but maybe that's just because I've grown older and more jaded.

I was going to go into Civ IV and Civ V, but I'm out of time, so I'll do that in a separate reply later.
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When I got back into computer gaming several years ago, after having been away from it for a long while, I bought the then-relatively-new Civilization V. I'd never totally loved the game, but it was just my kind of game, and I'd played every earlier version.

I had played very little of Civ IV, though, for two reasons: (1) I disliked the 3D graphics and couldn't get used to them, and (2) something (the movies, I think) kept making our PC crash during the game, and I couldn't figure out how to fix that. So I just stopped playing. By the time I was ready to try again, Civ V had come out.

Some things about Civ V appealed to me right away. I'm an old wargamer, and it was a joy for me to see the hex-grid map. I had also always hated the "stacks of doom" in Civ, so I was glad they were gone--though I thought "one unit per tile" was going too far.

When I learned the ropes, I found that I could tolerate, and even enjoy, war in Civ for the first time. I also liked turning city-states into allies. On the downside, I didn't like the way the game restricted expansion; I like to grab a lot of territory, and the "happiness" system in Civ V reins me in considerably. Also, I noticed the science victory was often out of reach; I couldn't climb the tech tree quite fast enough. So I settled into going for a diplomatic victory in every game. That worked for me. (The cultural victory, in any Civ game, has always been a mystery to me. I've achieved them in rare cases, but I've never taken time to understand how that system works.)

Then, last year or so, I bought Civilization IV: The Complete Edition from GOG. It runs fine, as the games I buy from GOG and Steam usually do, and I had less trouble adjusting to the 3D graphics this time. I had been playing Civ V almost exclusively on the so-called "strategic" map, which is 2D. But I'd seen enough 3D games in recent years that I could deal with them better now.

Anyhow, Civ IV made a positive impression on me almost immediately. After years of playing Civ V, I felt freer. For one thing, I could expand my territory more easily, without having to worry about riots or rebellions. But besides that, the whole game looked brighter and played at a faster, more exciting pace. Yeah, I even had to watch out for barbarians at first, so I missed Civ V's built-in city defenses; but that was a minor problem, easily solved. I also missed the neutral city-states a little, but it was nice not being pestered by them all the time--having to bribe them or build roads for them or whatever to stay on good terms. It was so cool hearing Leonard Nimoy doing the voice acting, plus the famous Baba Yetu background music, that I welcomed those features even after hearing them a hundred times.

After playing Civ IV for several months or so, I tried Civ V again for comparison, and for me it came up short. It felt long and slow, and I found myself pressured into dealing with caravans and archaeological digs and collecting great works--not to mention playing politics in the world council (or whatever it's called)--none of which interested me very much. Even combat was slower than I'd have liked; I had to bring in plenty of ranged units and set them up in a ring around the target, then wear it down before assaulting. I'd have been happier if I could have stacked, say, three units in a hex.

Following that experiment, I played a lot of Civ IV. Unfortunately, I was disappointed there too at certain points. A minor irritation is random events: they seem stupid and don't seem to have any appreciable effect anyway, so now I disable them when I remember to. A major irritation is warfare: the AI players seem too aggressive to me (and there's no option for making them less aggressive, but only more so), and then there are the infamous "stacks of doom."

In Civ I through IV, there's no limit to how many military units can be stacked together in a single square. And there are no supply-line rules or anything to encourage players to spread them out. So you can build a stack of half a hundred units and move it all over the map, steamrolling everything unless you bump into a similar enemy stack. In Civ IV, the designers feebly tried to improve that situation by introducing specialty upgrades. Theoretically you need just the right kind of unit with the right upgrades to get a certain job done, depending on what your target is. But once you've put a little thought into that, you can still build your "stack of doom" and overwhelm the enemy with sheer numbers. I wouldn't mind that if I were the only one doing it. Unfortunately, the AI players do it too. And I've never yet figured out any kind of passive defense that works against it. Given a few turns, the enemy stack can pretty much take any city I'm defending. And the AI tends to be relentless about it. Counterattacking seems to be the only viable option, but I can only do that if I'm prepared or my cities are productive enough. So, the end result is that I have to constantly prepare for offensive war all the time in every game, lest I be caught with my pants down and crushed like a bug. And I hate preparing for offensive war in Civ.

What I want to do in Civ is explore and peacefully expand until I've got a vast territory under my control and I've squeezed most enemies into a corner. From then on, I want to develop my cities and do my tech research and build wonders. Since I made a point of claiming so much territory, I should have the most resources and be getting ahead faster than everybody else. If my rivals get jealous, they might attack me, but that should be unlikely to do them any good, since I'm in shape to produce and field many more military units than they can. My only worry should be that my rivals might get their hands on nukes at the end, so I have to race ahead to make sure that doesn't happen, or else hope I can launch a spaceship before the ICBMs start flying.

In practice, the equivalent of the World Wars often happens instead. My rivals start attacking when they've got twentieth-century weapons. And even if I'm prepared for that, it's a long, painful process to wage war with tanks and artillery and bombers and battleships and all that. Late-game warfare in Civ IV practically ruins it for me.

In spite of that, though, I have to say Civ IV is the very best version of Civ I've played. Even if I have to walk on eggshells, trying to avoid or curtail war, most of the game is still such a joy to play that it's worth it sometimes. And as a bonus, there are lots of good mods for Civ IV. I've tried a few, and it'd be fun to get deeper into them.

There's a rumor floating around that the even-numbered Civ games are the best. That makes me curious about Civ VI, but I haven't had any experience with it yet. I've watched a couple videos and read a little about it, but it sounds too much like Civ V to me. I'll probably wait until the novelty wears off and the price drops before I'll find out what Civ VI is like.
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This is another genre where I've played all of the top 10, but I really do like 4x games. I really like the style of game, but they require a real commitment of time and effort to learn to really enjoy. I have a list 4x games I want to try, but I usually just go back to one I'm already familiar with (e.g. Civ 4). Also, there are a lot of 4x games that are either too boring or tedious for me to enjoy, which also makes it harder to want to invest a bunch of time in new ones when I know my old favorites are still great.

EDIT: actually, looking at the list of 4x games, some of them are my favorite games, but I don't actually like a lot of them. Civ 4 and Master of Orion are probably my favorite 4x games.

These are on my list to try out, though:
Master of Orion: Conquer the Stars
Endless Space II
Endless Legend
Warlock Master of the Arcane
Star Wars: Empire at War (I've played this and didn't think it was very good, but feel like maybe I didn't give it a fair go)
Sins of a Solar Empire
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