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Video Game» Forums » Video Game Related » General Video Gaming

Subject: VGG QOTD 2019 April 8 - What do you hope to see from next-generation consoles? rss

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How realistic is backwards compatibility for the PSes? I recall PS3 started off at $600. TBH, it included a BD player, and it could play PS2 games due to having the appropriate hardware. Later on ,they were able to cut the price by losing those hardware components, and relying on software emulation. They further cut its price by losing the backwards compatibility altogether.

Can anybody with more deeper tech knowledge chime in on PS4 also doing PS3? Also a theoretical PS5 doing PS4?


For Nintendo, they've always did 1 generation back. Obviously, the Switch using "glorified SD cards" doesn't cut it when optical discs were the norm of prev-gen.
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ackmondual wrote:
For Nintendo, they've always did 1 generation back.


Personally I would say that with a few instances Nintendo has had backwards compatibility.

SNES, no backwards compatibility with NES. There was a peripheral that gave Game Boy compatibility though. So some credit there.

Nintendo 64, no backwards compatibility.

Game Cube, no backwards compatibility. There was a peripheral that gave Game Boy Advance compatibility though.

Wii, Early versions had backwards compatibility with Game Cube.

Wii U, backwards compatible with Wii.

Switch, no backwards compatibility with Wii U.

Though it looks like they take backwards compatibility more seriously with their hand held devices.
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ackmondual wrote:
The problem was 3rd party companies who ported their games wouldn't really do much with this naturally, and I don't blame them since PS, Xbox, and even PC (if it got to there) didn't have a "quasi-ipad", so they wouldn't want to do more work just for one platform.


Exactly. However, I do blame them for not letting the indies go wild on the machine. It was clear from the start that no AAA games would make good use of that screen.
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The more I read this thread, the more I realize that I have a lot of more FEARS on what future consoles may do than HOPES for what they may do.

Always-online, streaming-only, register-your-every-move or whatever that they'll come up with, and that I'll hate, and first boycott, and then gradually fold as I'll still want to play some game. Brrrr.

I guess the best I can hope for is "retain physical purchases", "stay offline", "get off my lawn".
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To be honest I'm currently thinking I won't buy a next gen console. I already have no interest in the Switch (I have a Wii and a Wii U) and the PS3 and PS4 have so many back-catalogue games to keep me entertained for a good while yet. Plus I do a lot of replays. At the same time my videogaming is slowing down on what it once was.

What would I want if I did buy one?

Backward compatibility always seems nice. But PS4 has a lot of remasters anyway, which are better in some way.

I'd like to play Halo one day. And Forza Horizon seems like fun. I guess I look backward more than forwards.

Be nice if the console wasn't cluttered with a ton of non-videogame apps.

Voice command? Xbone has that right? Does it work well?
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manukajoe wrote:
Be nice if the console wasn't cluttered with a ton of non-videogame apps.

Yes please.

Howver, I'd like the console to mimic the Wii U's "almanach", where you could check what games you'd played and for how long. I KNOW the PS4 and the Switch are tracking that, and I really really hate that they don't share that information with ME.
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Zimeon wrote:
manukajoe wrote:
Be nice if the console wasn't cluttered with a ton of non-videogame apps.

Yes please.

Howver, I'd like the console to mimic the Wii U's "almanach", where you could check what games you'd played and for how long. I KNOW the PS4 and the Switch are tracking that, and I really really hate that they don't share that information with ME.


Well, I'm an ingnorant Americian, but isn't that a GDPR violation? If they're tracking that, then they have to make it accessable to you.
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manukajoe wrote:
To be honest I'm currently thinking I won't buy a next gen console. I already have no interest in the Switch (I have a Wii and a Wii U) and the PS3 and PS4 have so many back-catalogue games to keep me entertained for a good while yet. Plus I do a lot of replays.


I do have interest in the Switch and the 3DS, so it's an even stronger effect for me. Assuming the PS5 launches in Fall 2020, it's hard for me to see myself buying it before Fall 2021 at the earliest.
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ackmondual wrote:
How realistic is backwards compatibility for the PSes? I recall PS3 started off at $600. TBH, it included a BD player, and it could play PS2 games due to having the appropriate hardware. Later on ,they were able to cut the price by losing those hardware components, and relying on software emulation. They further cut its price by losing the backwards compatibility altogether.

Can anybody with more deeper tech knowledge chime in on PS4 also doing PS3? Also a theoretical PS5 doing PS4?



I have a very limited understanding of this sort of thing, so take it with a grain of salt. From what I've heard, since the PS4 is built on x86 technology and the PS5 (or whatever it winds up being) will also be built on that technology, PS5 to PS4 backwards compatibility should be, for lack of a better term, native (as I understand it anyway). There's also been a patent filed that suggests that there will be dedicated emulation processing for older games (presumably PS3 and back). Here's a video that talks about it a bit. Backwards compatibility talk starts at 10:37.



Of course, this is all mostly speculation at this point, but fingers crossed.
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yaverot wrote:
Zimeon wrote:
manukajoe wrote:
Be nice if the console wasn't cluttered with a ton of non-videogame apps.

Yes please.

Howver, I'd like the console to mimic the Wii U's "almanach", where you could check what games you'd played and for how long. I KNOW the PS4 and the Switch are tracking that, and I really really hate that they don't share that information with ME.


Well, I'm an ingnorant Americian, but isn't that a GDPR violation? If they're tracking that, then they have to make it accessable to you.


You tell them. I have no way of seeing for how long I've played a specific game on the PS4. I know that my PS friends know – they get these notification that I've played XXXXX for YY hours (so obviously they track it), but _I_ have no way of accessing that info at will.
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Zimeon wrote:
I know that my PS friends know – they get these notification that I've played XXXXX for YY hours (so obviously they track it), but _I_ have no way of accessing that info at will.


I didn't even know this was a thing. I don't think I've ever gotten that notification. Is it something that appears in the activity feed? I rarely look at it, so maybe I've just never noticed. Regardless, that's annoying. I want to know how long I've played a game, especially when there's no in-game timer.
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ghostpants wrote:
Zimeon wrote:
I know that my PS friends know – they get these notification that I've played XXXXX for YY hours (so obviously they track it), but _I_ have no way of accessing that info at will.


I didn't even know this was a thing. I don't think I've ever gotten that notification. Is it something that appears in the activity feed? I rarely look at it, so maybe I've just never noticed. Regardless, that's annoying. I want to know how long I've played a game, especially when there's no in-game timer.


One thing I like about Steam. It's right there staring at your face.

ghostpants wrote:
I have a very limited understanding of this sort of thing, so take it with a grain of salt. From what I've heard, since the PS4 is built on x86 technology and the PS5 (or whatever it winds up being) will also be built on that technology, PS5 to PS4 backwards compatibility should be, for lack of a better term, native (as I understand it anyway). There's also been a patent filed that suggests that there will be dedicated emulation processing for older games (presumably PS3 and back). Here's a video that talks about it a bit. Backwards compatibility talk starts at 10:37.

Of course, this is all mostly speculation at this point, but fingers crossed.
That looks quite promising! It doesn't make much of a difference to me but it is a cool concept to bring.

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What I want to see is better development practices and use of general libraries, both technological and content, that come from outside specific developers and publishers. We are way beyond the days where it makes sense for developers to build as much as they do in creating games, and they are just so painfully bad at it.

For what I want to see from future gaming, we need to see the general water level rise. I want smaller ideas to flourish and a focus on great games. Far too many of the greatest games for this or that are in the past, and far too many current games (even major ones) are plagued by simple poor construction and broken thinking.

Frankly, the level of hard technology we are at is well over sufficient. The most valuable improvements are things that make the experience better and the hardware cooler, quieter, etc.
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manukajoe wrote:
To be honest I'm currently thinking I won't buy a next gen console. I already have no interest in the Switch (I have a Wii and a Wii U) and the PS3 and PS4 have so many back-catalogue games to keep me entertained for a good while yet. Plus I do a lot of replays. At the same time my videogaming is slowing down on what it once was.

What would I want if I did buy one?

Backward compatibility always seems nice. But PS4 has a lot of remasters anyway, which are better in some way.

I'd like to play Halo one day. And Forza Horizon seems like fun. I guess I look backward more than forwards.

Be nice if the console wasn't cluttered with a ton of non-videogame apps.

Voice command? Xbone has that right? Does it work well?


I have not bought a next gen console since the PS2 with the exception of Nintendo Switch. The only reason I got the Switch was that it may well be the successor to the 3DS meaning that we may not see a pure Nintendo handheld during the Switch's life cycle. Of course there is the rumored Switch Mini (I think it a stupid idea by the way. I rather have the next Switch revision will be a Switch Pro).

As for apps, I enjoyed them on the 3DS and welcome them on the Switch. For the 3DS, I enjoyed the pedometer, Streetpass, Swapnote, Netflix, YouTube, etc. On the Switch, I watch YouTube often on it.

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frumpish wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
For Nintendo, they've always did 1 generation back.


Personally I would say that with a few instances Nintendo has had backwards compatibility.

SNES, no backwards compatibility with NES. There was a peripheral that gave Game Boy compatibility though. So some credit there.

Nintendo 64, no backwards compatibility.

Game Cube, no backwards compatibility. There was a peripheral that gave Game Boy Advance compatibility though.

Wii, Early versions had backwards compatibility with Game Cube.

Wii U, backwards compatible with Wii.

Switch, no backwards compatibility with Wii U.

Though it looks like they take backwards compatibility more seriously with their hand held devices.
Oh, bad mindset of mine. I naturally never assumed anything before the Wii would be backwards compatible. However, I should have been specific, so that is on me blush

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ghostpants wrote:
I didn't even know this was a thing. I don't think I've ever gotten that notification. Is it something that appears in the activity feed? I rarely look at it, so maybe I've just never noticed.


Well, I have seen in the little feed (below the menu) that "J---- has played FIFA18 for 20 hours!" or something, now and then. Not often now, as I don't have that many PS friends. But it does appear.

The Wii U tells me exactly how long it's been on, and which games (apps) have been active, which days, and for how long. It's also presented in a clear way. When they do that, I'm more ready to share the information with them, than I am when it's withhold from me.
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I have actually come to despise backwards compatibility.

There are people who don't think it's important. I have come to believe that it's important not to have it.

The reason is fairly simple. Many games, even very good ones, run like garbage in their original release, but we put up with it because there is no alternative, and because we accept that they are pushing the hardware. One generation goes by, and suddenly all you have is a game that runs like garbage.

Take Final Fantasy IX. I actually would not play or pay for the PSX release today. But the along comes the PS4 version, carefully optimized by Bluepoint Games, and it's a joy to play. You see this over, and over, and over again.

The original Uncharted trilogy runs reasonably well on the PS3, but the load times aren't great. They are virtually non-existent if you play the remastered release on PS4. You are literally buying your life back. Seconds, minutes, hours of your life reliving technical limitations. And the cost is trivial.
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JohnRayJr wrote:
I have actually come to despise backwards compatibility.

There are people who don't think it's important. I have come to believe that it's important not to have it.

The reason is fairly simple. Many games, even very good ones, run like garbage in their original release, but we put up with it because there is no alternative, and because we accept that they are pushing the hardware. One generation goes by, and suddenly all you have is a game that runs like garbage.

Take Final Fantasy IX. I actually would not play or pay for the PSX release today. But the along comes the PS4 version, carefully optimized by Bluepoint Games, and it's a joy to play. You see this over, and over, and over again.

The original Uncharted trilogy runs reasonably well on the PS3, but the load times aren't great. They are virtually non-existent if you play the remastered release on PS4. You are literally buying your life back. Seconds, minutes, hours of your life reliving technical limitations. And the cost is trivial.

I would say that it's a bit of a double-edged sword. While there are quite a few games that have been carefully brought up to date such that playing them now is better than the original version, those only represent a tiny minority of games. Even if a total lack of backwards compatibility encouraged more games to get this treatment. It's still going to be a piecemeal approach where you are relying on others to curate what games get the update treatment and what ones don't. That's ignoring the games that get remastered to death as well; where changes to the updated version make it an inferior experience to the original. That, of course, is going to be an eye of the beholder kind of thing.

All of that being said, for people who are serious about maintaining their old collections of games, it's probably best to stick to original hardware.
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I highly doubt that publishers will stop remastering games just because the hardware is capable of playing the old games. They don't make money of those old games anymore.

And while this is definitely speculation, I'd hope that it would inspire devs to make better remasters because if they're not good and there's an easy enough way to play the original, they're going to lose out.
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JohnRayJr wrote:
I have actually come to despise backwards compatibility.

There are people who don't think it's important. I have come to believe that it's important not to have it.

The reason is fairly simple. Many games, even very good ones, run like garbage in their original release, but we put up with it because there is no alternative, and because we accept that they are pushing the hardware. One generation goes by, and suddenly all you have is a game that runs like garbage.

Take Final Fantasy IX. I actually would not play or pay for the PSX release today. But the along comes the PS4 version, carefully optimized by Bluepoint Games, and it's a joy to play. You see this over, and over, and over again.

The original Uncharted trilogy runs reasonably well on the PS3, but the load times aren't great. They are virtually non-existent if you play the remastered release on PS4. You are literally buying your life back. Seconds, minutes, hours of your life reliving technical limitations. And the cost is trivial.


I don't think that having backwards compatibility will necessarily eliminate publishers from remastering big titles. It isn't a perfect example, but Blu-ray copies of blockbusters movies still sell even though most players will still play, and in most cases upsample DVD's. So while I agree that having remastered versions is pretty awesome, epsecially if a game is so good I already want to go back and play it, I don't think that opening up the use of last gen's game disks will mean we dont see shinied up copies of our favorite titles.

But I also agree with Luke, that relying on a publisher to curate what games I have access to via remasters is kinda lame. I bought a copy of S.L.A.I.: Steel Lancer Arena International because I wanted to play it, not look at it! And there is no way that game will ever get a remaster. Plus, it is a bit of a bummer to be looking at a current gen game I might be late to the party to, and thinking, "well, I'll just wait for the remaster in a few years."
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ackmondual wrote:
How realistic is backwards compatibility for the PSes? I recall PS3 started off at $600. TBH, it included a BD player, and it could play PS2 games due to having the appropriate hardware. Later on ,they were able to cut the price by losing those hardware components, and relying on software emulation. They further cut its price by losing the backwards compatibility altogether.

Can anybody with more deeper tech knowledge chime in on PS4 also doing PS3? Also a theoretical PS5 doing PS4?


For Nintendo, they've always did 1 generation back. Obviously, the Switch using "glorified SD cards" doesn't cut it when optical discs were the norm of prev-gen.


From memory and in my limited understanding (so most likely wrong!)
As you said, PS2 on PS3 was initially done by including essentially a PS2 CPU (Emotion Engine) in the PS3. Later in the generation this was done via emulation and the EE CPU was dropped, but the quality of the PS2 games supposedly suffered by running via emulation. PS3 was Cell architecture (and Cell started life as a dramatic rethink of PowerPC maybe?). Cell was notoriously hard to program for but also really powerful. This is why Sony's PS3 games looked fabulous but third party PS3 games often performed worse than they did on the XB360.

Anyways, emulating PS3's Cell architecture on PS4's x86 architecture is supposedly problematic. Maybe with more power in the PS5 and more desire from consumers the PS5 will be able to emulate PS3 games. PS2 games would be easier because even though the Emotion Engine was a custom RISC processor the PS4 has more than enough horse power to do it so the PS5 could do it easy.

For comparison the XBox used x86 architecture (easier for back comparability on the XB1's x86 architecture) and the XB360 used a PowerPC 970/G5 customized chip (interesting tid bit, the first dev kits for XB360 were Apple G5 PowerMacs) which while not as clean as x86 to x86 is much easier than Cell to x86. And since MS already has this back compatibility in place with many XB and XB360 games on the XB1 (and enhanced resolution and stuff on the XB1X) all existing back compatible games and all XB1 games will work on both XB2s (build names Lockhart & Anaconda, marketing names yet to be released).

Anyways anyways: for next gen console I'm perfectly happy with an iterative design for the XBox Anaconda. Continue cross platform, continue back compatibility. More horsepower for better frame rates and sparklier games. What I would really like is more RAM and a console OS that would allow me to page between games. Currently I'm bouncing back and forth between FarCry New Dawn and Forza Horizon 4. When I switch games I've got to load the game each time. Would like enough memory and an OS that will allow me to have more than one game running concurrently. Pause FC New Dawn, page over to FH4 and play some, pause FH4, page back to FC New Dawn, play some. No quitting one game to load another game. Pipe dream. Won't happen. VR? Eh, okay I guess. Streaming? Not for me.

Exclusives will always be a thing. Amuses me greatly the hubbub and outrage over Epic Game Store getting PC exclusives.
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Lurkfish wrote:
From memory and in my limited understanding (so most likely wrong!)
As you said, PS2 on PS3 was initially done by including essentially a PS2 CPU (Emotion Engine) in the PS3. Later in the generation this was done via emulation and the EE CPU was dropped, but the quality of the PS2 games supposedly suffered by running via emulation. PS3 was Cell architecture (and Cell started life as a dramatic rethink of PowerPC maybe?). Cell was notoriously hard to program for but also really powerful. This is why Sony's PS3 games looked fabulous but third party PS3 games often performed worse than they did on the XB360.


On a related note, I recall hearing that programming for GameCube and Wii were easier (especially by comparison). In fact, the Wii had the same APIs, but with extra stuff for the Wiimote, and some minor differences and extras beyond that.
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JohnRayJr wrote:
I have actually come to despise backwards compatibility.

There are people who don't think it's important. I have come to believe that it's important not to have it.


The reason you give is that remasters are better. Is the point that no backwards compatibility means that remasters are more likely? That might be so, but I think the backwards compatibility is mostly for all the other games, no?
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Zimeon wrote:
JohnRayJr wrote:
I have actually come to despise backwards compatibility.

There are people who don't think it's important. I have come to believe that it's important not to have it.


The reason you give is that remasters are better. Is the point that no backwards compatibility means that remasters are more likely? That might be so, but I think the backwards compatibility is mostly for all the other games, no?


I guess the question is whether or not remasters would be flourishing at the moment if backwards compatibility were more common. What does the average consumer think they are paying for with a remaster? Slightly touched up graphics? Better framerate (The Last of Us was locked to 30FPS on PS3, but you could choose between 30/60 on PS4). Drastically reduced load-times? Or easy access to the game itself?

I have no way of knowing, but my intuition is that remasters are driven by access first. I want people to be able to play the games they want to play. But if they are going to pay for a past generation title, then they might as well be free of last-generation performance constraints.
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JohnRayJr wrote:
I guess the question is whether or not remasters would be flourishing at the moment if backwards compatibility were more common. What does the average consumer think they are paying for with a remaster? Slightly touched up graphics? Better framerate (The Last of Us was locked to 30FPS on PS3, but you could choose between 30/60 on PS4). Drastically reduced load-times? Or easy access to the game itself?

I have no way of knowing, but my intuition is that remasters are driven by access first. I want people to be able to play the games they want to play. But if they are going to pay for a past generation title, then they might as well be free of last-generation performance constraints.

I'd put my Gil on the market for remasters having more to do with there being a new generation of consumers who want easy access to older titles and that they(and their Rupees) come into the market when the mode of access across most media is "on demand." So in a sense I think the market for a modern remaster and a backward compatible console are 2 overlapping but different circles.
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