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Gabe Hawkins
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What are your thoughts on "arcade" games vs. "simulation" games? Which do you prefer? For example, do you prefer something like the Gran Turismo series over the Ridge Racer series or Call of Duty over ArmA?
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Depends. Simulations for an environment and gameplay to invest in, arcade for reflexive fun and time kill. Depends on my mood, the game's saving capabilty or session time, and my time available. I need both to scratch all my VG itches.
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Geoffrey Burrell
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I like both.
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An example that's familiar to me is Silent Service II versus Silent Hunter III. But it's not a great example. In its day, SS2 was more of a simulation game; today, if you stick to the battles, it feels more like an arcade game. It also plays more like an arcade game than SH3.

I like the way SH3 gives me a full range of sights and sounds. With my senses so engaged, I'm immersed in the simulation and feel I'm getting a pretty good taste of what it would've been like to do the real thing. (It's a little incongruous to hear the German crew speak with American accents, but I can shrug that off.)

But I don't actually want a whole lot of that, so I've never worked my way up to the more advanced controls. A hardcore player can set the game for minimal computer help, whereupon you have to flip through a (virtual) book to identify ships and manually calculate a firing solution for a torpedo shot. I'd like to be able to do that, but I don't want to put the time and effort into it. So I just let the computer calculate and tell me when to press the Fire button(s).

In the other game, SS2, sights and sounds are about what you'd expect from an old-timey arcade-style game--pretty rough. And even with the "historical torpedoes" option switched on, I think there are too few duds and too many clean hits, making the game more fun but less true-to-life. Also, there's no aircraft in the game, giving the weird impression that there were no planes in the Pacific theater.

I like both games, but since I always set the simulation game, SH3, to play in a more "arcadey" way, I guess I'll have to admit I lack the patience for true simulations. I like the look and feel of them, but I'm unwilling to work that hard at such a game.

Another example is B-17 Flying Fortress: The Mighty 8th!. It's a pretty darned good bomber sim, but I've struggled through exactly one intro mission. Just getting used to the controls and options is a major endeavor. Getting passably good at the game would take some real dedication, and I'm just not that interested.

As to racing games, I've never played a racing sim and don't think I'd like to. In fact, I think the only racing-type game I've ever played is Mario Kart DS. It surprised me; I liked it a lot. But at higher levels it was hard for me and sometimes frustrating. And I never got around to learning some of the advanced tricks I've read about. So if that game is hard enough, I'm going to steer clear of any game where I'd have to practice being a real race-car driver.
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To me that's like asking whether I like pizza or ice cream. I really like both, but sometimes I'm more in the mood for one than the other.
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paralipsis wrote:
To me that's like asking whether I like pizza or ice cream. I really like both, but sometimes I'm more in the mood for one than the other.


This.
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JohnRayJr wrote:
paralipsis wrote:
To me that's like asking whether I like pizza or ice cream. I really like both, but sometimes I'm more in the mood for one than the other.

This.

That's the trouble with Which do you like better? questions. For many people, the answer is always, "It depends."

Sometimes the questioner gets past that by forcing a choice: e.g., If you could only play one or the other, which would you choose?

Here, Gabe asks two questions, but only one gets answered.

But some of us are so verbose we'll say something more no matter what the question is or how it's phrased.
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
JohnRayJr wrote:
paralipsis wrote:
To me that's like asking whether I like pizza or ice cream. I really like both, but sometimes I'm more in the mood for one than the other.

This.

That's the trouble with Which do you like better? questions. For many people, the answer is always, "It depends."

Sometimes the questioner gets past that by forcing a choice: e.g., If you could only play one or the other, which would you choose?

Here, Gabe asks two questions, but only one gets answered.

But some of us are so verbose we'll say something more no matter what the question is or how it's phrased.

I feel like that's a prejudice based on the notion that a binary answer has more value than a scalar one. If you asked someone who enjoys intimacy with both men and women, would you ask them which they preferred most and then label them as homosexual or heterosexual according to their response?
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paralipsis wrote:
To me that's like asking whether I like pizza or ice cream.

You describe the lunch I had today
As with simulation vs. arcade:
The pizza needs more time for preparation and consuming.
The ice cream is instant gratification, but does not keep me satiated during the afternoon.

And then there are simcades, sometimes they are just the right mix
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Its good to remember that arcade is a bit of an old style vs simulation. I think there is still more to be had as we mix them.
I'd consider batman simulation but every little fight is arcade mode, I think that blend was key to its success.
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paralipsis wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
Sometimes the questioner gets past that by forcing a choice: e.g., If you could only play one or the other, which would you choose?

I feel like that's a prejudice based on the notion that a binary answer has more value than a scalar one. If you asked someone who enjoys intimacy with both men and women, would you ask them which they preferred most and then label them as homosexual or heterosexual according to their response?

Hmm ... that'd save me from having to consider the half dozen or so gender names people use nowadays. Seems simpler to just go by the genitalia one is born with, though--if I were going to insist on something binary. But then we get away from choice altogether, and we're even further off topic.

So, back on topic: I didn't mean to say "It depends" is a poor response; it can actually be the best response. But by itself, it's terse. Terseness has the benefit of speeding a discussion and being respectful of others' time and space. But on the downside, it usually contributes little.

That's why I normally go for a wordy reply that's apt to prompt a "tl;dr" response. It gives the impression I'm contributing something, and people who don't have time to read it usually give me the benefit of the doubt. Of course, others skim and find it's not very interesting, so they know better. But even they'll give me points for effort.

Or at least that's what I imagine. What really happens could be something entirely different.

 
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
paralipsis wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
Sometimes the questioner gets past that by forcing a choice: e.g., If you could only play one or the other, which would you choose?

I feel like that's a prejudice based on the notion that a binary answer has more value than a scalar one. If you asked someone who enjoys intimacy with both men and women, would you ask them which they preferred most and then label them as homosexual or heterosexual according to their response?

Hmm ... that'd save me from having to consider the half dozen or so gender names people use nowadays. Seems simpler to just go by the genitalia one is born with

So you are advocating everyone only ever masturbate as their only form of intimacy? Whaaaa?
 
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paralipsis wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
paralipsis wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
Sometimes the questioner gets past that by forcing a choice: e.g., If you could only play one or the other, which would you choose?

I feel like that's a prejudice based on the notion that a binary answer has more value than a scalar one. If you asked someone who enjoys intimacy with both men and women, would you ask them which they preferred most and then label them as homosexual or heterosexual according to their response?

Hmm ... that'd save me from having to consider the half dozen or so gender names people use nowadays. Seems simpler to just go by the genitalia one is born with

So you are advocating everyone only ever masturbate as their only form of intimacy? Whaaaa?

Umm, no. blush

My thoughts wandered away from your question and into the question of determining a person's gender. I was remembering how easy it used to be, when singular "they" was always wrong and everybody was a "he" or a "she" and carried a telltale sign of it. (Easy for us editors, I mean; not so easy for people with various gender identifications and sexual preferences.)

Getting back to your actual question, no--I wouldn't do that. I'd most likely be too embarrassed to ask anything at all; I'd just take whatever the person said at face value and be done with it.

I think forced-response questions do have their place, though. One place they're used effectively, IMO, is in instruments like the MBTI. The person administering the "test" is trying to get at an individual's preference pattern, and scaled responses just muddy the water. The whole theory is based on a set of dichotomies (innate preferences) drawn from Jung's writing (so if those dichotomies are false, the whole system falls apart), so the questions serve only to make one express a preference by choosing A or B each time. Any other response just weakens the result.

Checking for left-handed and right-handed people would be similar. Yeah, a few outliers are probably ambidextrous, but most of us have a dominant hand, and we have only two hands, so asking "Left or right?" makes sense.

However, asking "Arcade or simulation?" doesn't make sense, strictly speaking. But it's a handy way to invite discussion.
 
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
I was remembering how easy it used to be, when singular "they" was always wrong


We are way off track here, but a singular "they" hasn't been wrong for my entire lifetime, not even in academia.

Language evolves.
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I like it somewhere in the middle, with a lean more toward simulation.

Arcade physics can be fun sometimes, but tend to wear out their welcome quickly when you're expected to pull all sorts of nonsensical jumps and weird moves just to remain competitive, and especially when the game penalizes you for real life driving maneuvers. Games like Cruis'n USA and similar.

Extreme simulations generally aren't very fun either, because you spend so much time fighting the "realism" that you can't fully enjoy the game parts. Grand Prix Legends comes to mind for this. From what I've heard it was a phenomenal game, but in the demo I'd played the physics were so unforgiving that completing even a single lap was nearly impossible. With a full wheel & pedals controller setup it might work, but games like that just don't work with a simple joystick or console-style controller. Games like MS Flight Simulator fell into this range too. They should be applauded for their accuracy, but that doesn't make them fun.


Games like IndyCar Racing and Forza Motorsport are the high end of what I usually enjoy for driving games. They're close enough to simulation level that it "feels" real and real-life driving skills can be applied to the game (and vice-versa!), but it's not so unforgiving that you need to be an actual race car driver to play it well.

Games like GTA and Interstate '76 are solid benchmarks on the more arcade side. They still feel somewhat grounded in realism, but are forgiving enough that you can get pretty stupid with your driving before the game really pushes back - perfect for when you're trying to outrun a wanted level, or when your focus needs to be on blowing up the other cars before they blow you up.
 
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JohnRayJr wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
I was remembering how easy it used to be, when singular "they" was always wrong

We are way off track here, but a singular "they" hasn't been wrong for my entire lifetime, not even in academia.

In one sense, it has never been absolutely wrong in anybody's lifetime. But for much of my lifetime it has been declared "incorrect usage" by quite a number of textbooks, style manuals, etc. Even today, the Chicago Manual of Style advises against it in most formal writing, except under very special circumstances.

Quote:
Language evolves.

Indeed it does. And it's not an entirely natural evolution either; it gets political.
 
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To delve into the question a little more.

Generally speaking I don't have a preference.

Specifically speaking, I expect more "arcade" style games not to play so fast and loose that it breaks immersion. A good example is Battlefield 1. Despite being a game about World War 1, BF1 simply cannot let go of tried and true shooter conventions. I has heavy machine-guns (hand-held), rocket launchers, etc. It has a whole chapter where you are in the Italian special forces, and basically put on full-plate armor (like it's a medieval war) to withstand gunfire. It's SO stupid. Sure it still plays about as fun as any other BF, but come on - what was the point of choosing the WWI setting?

When it comes to more "realistic" games, I still expect the game to be fun. If you're going to have my characters die from a single gunshot, what is the meat of the game? What am I thinking about? What are my decisions? I enjoyed Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2, not for it's wannabe-24 plot, but for its methodical representation of breach-and-clear tactics. You get shot, you die or are badly wounded, but that doesn't detract from the game as it is constructed.
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JohnRayJr wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
I was remembering how easy it used to be, when singular "they" was always wrong

We are way off track here, but a singular "they" hasn't been wrong for my entire lifetime, not even in academia.

Language evolves.

Even before your lifetime! When a man like Shakespeare uses it singularly, they set the standard. (I did also used to be a stickler for plural they, but as you say, language and understanding evolve... although the hill I still want to die on is "literally" now being used to mean "not literally", thus depriving the word of any meaning whatsoever.)

Anyway, as others have said certainly one can prefer something in different circumstances, but overall I probably lean slightly more arcade than sim. If you're using the strict definitions. If you mean more generally, I mostly play RPGs, which are often more turn-based (like a sim) than button-mashing (like an arcade).
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I prefer games that lean more towards the arcade style. I preferred Need for Speed: Most Wanted (2012) over DRIVECLUB and F1 2016.

I'l play a military shooter for a realistic setting, but I don't really want a realistic simulation. One bullet = dead.
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Osirus wrote:
When a man like Shakespeare uses it singularly, they set the standard.


Or rather, when someone like Coleridge rescues Shakespeare from detractors, more people start paying attention to the "upstart crow." And a few of his (or their) words stick around while many others are never used again (except by a certain VGGeek who likes to use "certes").

Quote:
The hill I still want to die on is "literally" now being used to mean "not literally", thus depriving the word of any meaning whatsoever.)

Webster's gets around that by calling it hyperbole: "Since some people take sense 2 [virtually] to be the opposite of sense 1 [actually], it has been frequently criticized as a misuse. Instead, the use is pure hyperbole intended to gain emphasis, but it often appears in contexts where no additional emphasis is necessary."
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I don't really like either genre except for specific simulations like The Sims (and that entirely depends on what is being simulated - I generally play games to get away from real life). Most arcade games I played were of the fighting genre or at least more reflex oriented. I generally prefer (turn-based) RPGs and maybe the occasional adventure or stealth game.
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I tend to like the middle in general, or more specifically a middle ground that captures the fun or interesting aspects of a given simulation while making the more tedious parts arcady.
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manukajoe wrote:
I'll play a military shooter for a realistic setting, but I don't really want a realistic simulation. One bullet = dead.

Hear, hear. And not just because of the ugliness. There's also the tediousness and frustration of dud torpedoes, missed shots, ineffective bombing, and so forth.
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
And a few of his (or their) words stick around while many others are never used again (except by a certain VGGeek who likes to use "certes").

I don't know who would oft use such archaic terms. whistle

Patrick Carroll wrote:

Osirus wrote:
The hill I still want to die on is "literally" now being used to mean "not literally", thus depriving the word of any meaning whatsoever.)

Webster's gets around that by calling it hyperbole: "Since some people take sense 2 [virtually] to be the opposite of sense 1 [actually], it has been frequently criticized as a misuse. Instead, the use is pure hyperbole intended to gain emphasis, but it often appears in contexts where no additional emphasis is necessary."

But the previous function of the word was specifically to distinguish an actual relaying of facts from hyperbole. So the word no longer conveys any information. "I took too long to reply because I literally fell asleep at my desk." The world literally no longer adds anything to the sentence, as you still don't know if I actually fell asleep or not.

...anyway, to get back to the actual topic, the type of people who argue about and are annoyed about the use of the world literally are probably no fun and do not prefer arcade games, which are fun.
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Osirus wrote:
...anyway, to get back to the actual topic, the type of people who argue about and are annoyed about the use of the word literally are probably no fun and do not prefer arcade games, which are fun.

Then it would follow that the type of people who don't argue about, and are not annoyed about, the use of the word literally prefer simulation games?

Why, if that's the case, we could have simplified this whole thread by just asking how people feel about the word literally! Gabe, why didn't you do it that way?
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